Curse

jesh · Jun 08, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

You just said it there, wouldn't the slot be better filled with purge conditions or remove hex?

Anyway, any competant monk will remove the condition almost as soon as it is put on, double time if you call the blind on yourself.

Tell me what you would replace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

The main difference there is that both Live Vicariously and Vigorous Spirit require you to attack (or do something) to gain the healing benefit, while Mending does not. As a result, if you're blinded, you continue to get the benefit from the two spells, but if you have a damage-causing hex on you, the health gain from these two enchantments is generally offset by the damage by the hex.

Don't get me wrong - I often run a no-energy build that uses both Mending and Live Vicariously and I love the effects. I think there are some situations, however, where Mending might be preferable to those two enchantments, however.

I said that myself, didn't I? ... Yes, yes I did.

Quote:

Also, if there's a lot of blind/reckless haste being thrown around, mending would probably be a more efficient heal in that case.

I think at this point everything that can be said has been said, correct? Mending helps when blind, vigorous/vicarious do not. Mending helps runners. Mending is not as efficient SP wise compared to vigorous/vicarious. I still don't like it, and there are still others who do. Whoopee?

jummeth · Jun 08, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

What I would replace mending with?

Thats quite easy... for a W/mo - succor / purge / mend ailment are all good.
For W/E - Shock / Bull strike / Disrupt
For W/N - Plague touch / GB

Mending isn't even used in most running either, the most efficient droks run build wouldn't use mending. Still I really only see mending useful on a 55.

Age · Jun 08, 2006, 11:35 PM // 23:35

The only time I would use mending if I am useing Vampicric weapon of some kind.I know I can switch but I would prefer it on when useing weapon like that.

elektra_lucia · Jun 09, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Rofl.

Senator Tom · Jun 09, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

wouldn't purge conditions have been clever =O

When you're blind, your not attacking, so you might as well use heal sig.

If you have a curses necro sitting on you, mending or not, you shouldn't attack through it, unless its a spike. Again if you're not attacking, you will find Heal Sig better.

so when im not attacking i should just use healing sig? no i dont think so, that -40 armor will get me killed.

a curses nec sitting on me...when does that happen besides pvp?

jummeth · Jun 09, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

First of all, there were aspects of this discussion that was to do with PvP, in GvG/HA/TA you will find that as a warrior, a mes/necro will be on your case the whole time. If your team has inadequate hex removal, you will be pacified for pretty much the duration of the match, heal sig is very effective at countering mass degen since the -40 AL is not directly affecting the degen rate.

In a PvE PUG situation, you would not be the only tank (if you were the monk would have you as a priority heal), which means that you can step back from the front lines and heal with heal sig. If you have watch yourself active, you have a -20 penalty. Sprint active or if you are hexed, your hexed set on, you have +45 -3 and +60 -3 respectively. Switching to a +AL weapon set also helps in this respect.

If you are in a specialised farming setup with you as the ONLY tank, you shouldn't worry about the healing. Your job is to mitigate damage. Monk's heal priority should be 1. you, 2. MM, 3. Damage dealer, etc etc

fiery · Jun 09, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Mending is ick all around, healing breeze okay in PVE.

jesh · Jun 10, 2006, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

What I would replace mending with?

Thats quite easy... for a W/mo - succor / purge / mend ailment are all good.
For W/E - Shock / Bull strike / Disrupt
For W/N - Plague touch / GB

Mending isn't even used in most running either, the most efficient droks run build wouldn't use mending. Still I really only see mending useful on a 55.

... What I meant was, what skill would you replace on the build I posted, with purge conditions or remove hex?

If you ask me, the build is much more hampered with one of those skills on there, than if you'd simply leave it alone. It's too much of a waste of a skill slot, especially when all it takes is on spot on a monk's bar that should most likely have it anyway.

Putting either one on there would render the build less effective. As for your priority list, that's somewhat laughable for PvE. Warriors are my *last* priority, besides myself. They have the highest natural AL and usually carry self healing spells, unlike most other classes in PuGs. My first priority is usually PBAoE elementalists and the like, then other monks, etc.

Really though, class isn't always the rule you should play by as a monk. A seemingly suicidal elementalist could have stance skills and armor enchants that render him an excellent tank, while the warrior could still have 50al armor and 7 signets of capture, plus mending. You have to pay attention to how skilled your team mates are in a PuG, or you end up wasting your energy where it isn't needed.

jummeth · Jun 10, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

In the build you posted in page 4? Feels like a farming build to me. I would replace vig spirit with CoP, take deadly reposte instead of LV. if you have conditions and hexes to get rid of, monk throws a couple of enchants and boom gone. Also use a sword, maybe reposte aswell. You still got your B.S. for e-management, but your main task is to tank then, there you have it.

Actually, RE: healing priorities, if you are a warrior, who does next to no damage and generally is a meat shield or even worse, res fodder. I will spend less time healing you. If you are a DPS/spike monster, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will keep you alive, without you, it means I will die sooner or later.

If the PBAoE ele will go in and cause crazy spike damage and then be able to kite/snare the mob onto a heavier char, then yes they are playing their role properly.

Notice the warrior build stubs I posted are all DPS > defence, a dead enemy will not attack you, a warrior can out damage any other profession, why gimp yourself is what I am trying to say.
Heck you can even take some defensive skills like watch yourself.

As for the 50AL warrior, you, as a monk will notice very quickly that the warrior is not doing anything. Thats the bonus of being a monk, you see what the people on your team are casting

Desert Penguin · Jun 10, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Vigorous Spirit heals you 17 Health every time you attack. I use this spell for my Wammo, and it heals more than Mending, and thats without the -1 energy regen. I can also keep *other* warriors in my party alive longer with this spell.

Vigorous Spirit just totally owns mending. I can keep myelf and other warriors mildly healthy with this spell.

Riotact · Jun 12, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

a w/mo that solo farms, droks trolls, elonas minators, griffins etc. mending + live vicariously + vig spirit + healing breeze make it very easy. other then that i cant see a use for mending. i always use vig spirit with cyclone axe and because it lasts 30 seconds its handy for my +45 -2 shield.

elektra_lucia · Jun 12, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

"mending + live vicariously + vig spirit + healing breeze make it very easy. "

That's over kill, you don't need mending. Or heal breeze.

Desert Penguin · Jun 12, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotact

a w/mo that solo farms, droks trolls, elonas minators, griffins etc. mending + live vicariously + vig spirit + healing breeze make it very easy. other then that i cant see a use for mending. i always use vig spirit with cyclone axe and because it lasts 30 seconds its handy for my +45 -2 shield.

Live Vicariously + Mending = requires 2 pips of energy regen. That means you cannot regenerate Energy for Healing Breeze or Vigorous Spirit.

Riotact · Jun 13, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Penguin

Live Vicariously + Mending = requires 2 pips of energy regen. That means you cannot regenerate Energy for Healing Breeze or Vigorous Spirit.

Yeah thats when u bust out Bonnettis Defence and it very quickly recharges your energy.

Kariston The Swift · Jun 14, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

zOmg WM runs Mending so it must be leet! Lol.

jesh · Jun 15, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

In the build you posted in page 4? Feels like a farming build to me. I would replace vig spirit with CoP, take deadly reposte instead of LV. if you have conditions and hexes to get rid of, monk throws a couple of enchants and boom gone. Also use a sword, maybe reposte aswell. You still got your B.S. for e-management, but your main task is to tank then, there you have it.

CoP? Wouldn't that be depending on a team mate to bring enchants with them? How does depending on another character's build in a random *pick up* group make sense? As for deadly riposte, sure, looks fine on paper, but the recharge is too high and costs energy besides. Oh look, you can use a stance to recharge it. Well you need adrenaline to do that, and where is that coming from? The cyclone axe you don't have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

Actually, RE: healing priorities, if you are a warrior, who does next to no damage and generally is a meat shield or even worse, res fodder. I will spend less time healing you. If you are a DPS/spike monster, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will keep you alive, without you, it means I will die sooner or later.

If the PBAoE ele will go in and cause crazy spike damage and then be able to kite/snare the mob onto a heavier char, then yes they are playing their role properly.

If you were monking, and I was playing on the w/mo build specified, true, I would not be doing damage. However I also would not need another warrior to take over because I'm inadequate at soaking damage. This leaves 4-6 slots for damage dealers. If the party plays well, and the w/mo has all the aggro, tell me, where is the monk spending energy? Sure, there are times when monsters will stray, and your squishies will get hurt. But I can't figure out how having *another* squishie is better than not? Just doesn't seem too efficient to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

Notice the warrior build stubs I posted are all DPS > defence, a dead enemy will not attack you, a warrior can out damage any other profession, why gimp yourself is what I am trying to say.
Heck you can even take some defensive skills like watch yourself.

As for the 50AL warrior, you, as a monk will notice very quickly that the warrior is not doing anything. Thats the bonus of being a monk, you see what the people on your team are casting

That's assuming a clean bar. Warriors are the most easily hated of all classes, even in PvE. Counting on another character to remove hexes, conditions, and heal you on top, is just rediculous. At least heal yourself. There's a reason that a warrior's role in PvE is a tank, and it's reversed in PvP. It just makes sense. Aggro is something non existant in PvP.

As for, "a dead enemy will not attack you", that may very well be true. Now when was the last time you saw a PuG running Ranger or Necro spike? Yeah, that's right. Never. The principle is valid, but combining the expecation of skill in PvE is only a recipe for disaster.

jummeth · Jun 15, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

R-Spikes and Necro Spikes' DPS is actually very low. In PvE you need high DPS. Thats why SS and High DPS warriors own.

In PvP, you have an intellegent monk that will be healing. R-spke is to make a target un-healable. Spikes, by their nature means you sacrifice DPS for an overwhelming attack.

RE: CoP, its merely trying to use an effective way of removing debilitating hexes and conditions. As you say, warriors are hated, therefore people bring warrior hate in terms of hexes and conditions.

Conditions are relatively easy to remove, but hexes are the annoying ones. CoP is an answer. Silly little self heals such as LV/mending is doing nothing against pressure that you care about OR spikes.

If the DPS/pressure is something LV/mending can solve, then a monk with OoH can do that much more cleaply. Orison can even keep a person alive with 10 degen. Indefinately.

Like I say, if I was monking, and you were there not doing damage, I'd say you were wasted space. This is PvE, not some specially kegger bug exploit farming run. I want to finish the mission with some reasonable speed. I think with 2 monks and 6 warriors (read: not tanks) you can probably clear most places faster than any other kind of team save B/P teams, but even then, you might notice that they are damage oriented.

Warriors are durable, and hard hitting. They are just weak to conditions and hexes, which with new elites like Expel Hexes etc you can keep them relatively clean.

jesh · Jun 16, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

It just seems wrong to me to assume *any* intelligent player in a PvE group. I think it's being generous if you credit the average PvE monk with the smarts to bring enchants for their CoP warrior.

Anyway, what's "B/P" mean?

jummeth · Jun 16, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Barrage Pet Groups.

Well, RE: enchants, maybe tell the prot/boon prot that you have CoP on your bar for hexes and whatnot.

ubermancer · Jun 18, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Zardeone

I don't agree with the counter to degen.

If you get degen stacked on you then mending will still be useless.

I'm too tired to think now but if you get several degens, poison, disease, bleed, hexes etc, then mending or heal breeze will help absolutely nothing.

Example:
1. fight a degen-oriented team in PvP
2. fight an eltie mission with -15 degen

Also, if something can hex you, it probably can shatter you too so vs mesmer mobs/bosses and necros and other crap, you're still nothing with your mending.

Fighting melee monsters... now that's a different story but hey wait... raised armour is better than mending vs melee...

Mending needs a boost imo, like +10 armour for it to be any good.

I agree with the other guy. It's good for running because if you're getting hit, the natural regen can't heal you so a constant regen is useful.

And for farming where you have the same problem... you have noone there to heal you and you can't just stop to use a heal sig or whatever so the mending is a blessing.

and the 55 purposes !.!

When I play my monk and I see a W/Mo in the team then I already get nervous and irritated.

When that W/Mo uses mending and healing breeze, I just refuse to heal the guy.
Believe it or not but yesterday this guy had:
- mending
- heal breeze
- orison of healing
- heal area

Not only was he unable to ANY damage, he took masses of damage himself. What's worse is that he actually healed the enemy with his heal area X.x

A few days ago, that shing shang mission.
Mending, heal breeze, healing hands. The guy took unbelievable amounts of damage.
I am normally able to keep spamming heals for a while but this guy needed 100% of my energy.
I was at half energy when my recycling prevented me from healing him further. All mys kills were recharging and they guy dropped dead.
"MONK HEAL OMFG" was the answer...

SO for the rest of the mission, I called every single freaking healing spell Iused on that one single guy. People got pissed at me for spamming but I loved the revenge.

Now he could see that I was constantly having to heal him and that shut him up big time.

What's the problem?

If the noob brings 3 different freaking healing spells then he usually has ZERO defense.
ZERO defense = HUGE amounts of damage = HUGE amounts of healing needed from the monk = HUGE amounts of energy consuming = EVERYBODY DEAD

That's why I don't heal mendingnoobs anymore =D

this could probably be prevented with bonding and such but whatever~

EDIT: how to get rid of degen:
1. Bring a monk
2. Be a W/Mo and bring smite hex and purge conditions
3. Bring a monk
4. Bring some kind of monk
5. work with your team

EDIT2: ok now my blood pressure is rising again, if I have a heartattack, I'll come haunt you when I'm dead

Quoted. For. Truth.